Stefano Patuanelli (M5S): “Enough talk of Renzi – we need the centre”

“Elly Schlein and Ukraine? We have a very clear view: Einstein said that stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again whilst hoping for a different result.” Is Stefano Patuanelli, a senator for the Five Star Movement, calling the secretary of the Democratic Party “stupid”? “No, no, absolutely not! That’s not what I mean. I’m simply saying that, as far as support for Kyiv is concerned, I believe that – after four and a half years of war and no results – a break with the past is needed.” The former Five Star Movement group leader in the Senate used a perhaps slightly bold quote to comment on the remarks made yesterday by Elly Schlein to our newspaper, in which she said she supported the defence of Kyiv “wholeheartedly” and “by any means necessary”. We met him at the M5S offices in the Senate to discuss the broad coalition and alliances, which also extend to foreign policy and Ukraine.

Schlein’s clarity on Kyiv has satisfied the reformist wing of the PD, but “this remains one of those issues on which our political forces hold differing positions”, says the former Minister for Economic Development in the Conte II government. “We are more in line with the positions of the Green and Left Alliance”, he points out. Two against one, Patuanelli. Will the Democrats have to settle for this? “I think we will reach a point where military support is curtailed, partly because Europe can no longer bear the costs. We need to make it clear to Zelensky that military aid is not a given, and we need to bring the parties to the negotiating table.”

Our conversation takes place in the office of Luca Pirondini, the M5S group leader in the Senate, who succeeded Patuanelli in February and is the main driving force behind the Five Star Movement’s campaign on the Delmastro case. “How can Giorgia Meloni commemorate Borsellino and then obstruct a judicial investigation into matters concerning the Senese clan? Either they have something to hide, or they want to attack the judiciary. I expect an explanation from the Prime Minister, though I know it won’t come,” he says. This is the battle the Movement will continue to fight until the Senate votes on the request to obtain the FdI MP’s chat records, before the summer recess.

Once August is over, then, it will be time to get down to serious work. Nova will take place and deliberative democracy will draft the party’s programme. And it will be time to debate the issues, and who is in and who is out. Will Matteo Renzi remain within or be excluded from the progressive camp? Patuanelli sighs: “They don’t want to talk about Renzi; he’s the leader of a party with between 1.5 and 2 per cent of the vote – why should we have to talk about him every day?” One reason is yesterday’s letter signed by Chiara Appendino in "Il Fatto Quotidiano". Fire and ink. "If I were to write a letter to a newspaper, I’d talk about security and energy." Patuanelli distances himself. But it is she who labels him unreliable: "Yes, but by telling him that, you’re giving him power."

The leader of Italia Viva continues to describe himself as ‘indispensable’ to the centre-left’s victory. Two or three per cent is still crucial to securing victory. Schlein isn’t imposing any vetoes either: ‘And in fact, we need to secure votes, not impose vetoes. And Renzi isn’t bringing in the votes. I believe that coordination between the PD and AVS is strong, but we need a moderate element to win over the centre. There are many projects taking shape, such as Alessandro Onorato’s…’. Are you also looking to the left? At Dibba? ‘I don’t think forming a party is that easy. It requires organisational skills. I’d be sorry to have him as an opponent’.

Let’s stick to the centre, then. They say the centre is the way to win. “I’m not just interested in getting into government for its own sake; I’m interested in getting into government to change the country.” For this reason, the government will be bound by a programme: “This is the key issue, and it is this that will decide who is in and who is out,” continues the former minister. It is reminiscent of the ‘contract’ of the yellow-green government, but without Matteo Salvini to ruin everything: “‘Without Matteo’ – you can leave out the surname…”, jokes the senator. The commitment is not only between the allies, but also linked to leadership: “Primaries aren’t the only way to choose. But the programme comes first.” If the electoral law is passed, the candidate must be announced in advance. “But yes, of course, even if it’s an unconstitutional measure,” says Patuanelli. “In any case, we’ll decide it together.” Best of luck.