“Is the M5S stirring things up over defence? They’ll have to agree too,” says Zanella (AVS)

Conte, Riccardi. An entire Movement that won’t budge a millimetre on foreign policy. “We’ve just signed a joint resolution: the document speaks for itself,” replies Luana Zanella, a Venetian MP for AVS. But all this shouting, all this unrelenting populism: could it be that someone on the left is trying to undermine you? “When statements are made in the Chamber or on social media, so be it. They’re just hot air. I’d stick to building a shared programme and agreements within the coalition: some progress has already been made.” Now that’s news. “There are far more things that unite us than divide us.” Why, then, does the issue of common ground continue to hold the primaries and potential leadership in check? “Between Conte and Schlein, it’s an open contest; there’s healthy competition. We’ll find a way to reach an agreement. As for the primaries, we at AVS don’t see it the same way as the leader of the M5S, but we’ll see where things end up.”

So, good luck to everyone. Full steam ahead and big smiles all round. “Our common goal is to send this right-wing party packing; if it were to ally itself with Vannacci, it would be an even greater danger and a disgrace,” insists Zanella. “We do not fear internal debate.” So, does he agree with the Movement’s ‘yellow line’? Not only no ‘Safe’, but not a single penny for defence either. Given the heat, water pistols at most. “But these are just throwaway lines: Conte has a sense of responsibility; he was even Prime Minister. As for rearmament, the billions that have been spent for who knows how many years are more than enough. On everything else, we need to get down to the nitty-gritty of a bipartisan agreement – excluding the generalists and the sovereigntists – given the urgent need for a common European defence.” That alone would be a godsend, given the times we live in, if even the Five Star Movement were to say it. “The M5S doesn’t agree? Of course they do. They’ll have to agree. Foreign policy and military spending are very serious issues, to be examined in depth and weighed up: in an era of attacks and hybrid wars, it’s clear that we must prepare ourselves with adequate security. I’m not naive. And in my view, neither are they.” On that point, there’s no doubt. “At the same time, I’m convinced that if every country ends up arming itself on its own, driving up debt to unimaginable levels, we’d find ourselves facing an enormous military risk across the whole of Europe. Think of the far right in Germany: there used to be a fear of leaving weapons in German hands; now the issue doesn’t even arise.”

Let’s stick with common defence, which is a good starting point. Ms Ricciardi says: ‘We don’t want enemies.’ Magnificent. Problem solved. ‘I don’t want to sound like a novice pacifist,’ the MP prefaced. “Life must be defended. Full stop. It is true that, at the same time, there are also economic and political pressures driving the arms race: the interests at stake are enormous; there are entire sectors financing this vicious cycle. The data must be analysed carefully. And common European defence must be accompanied by a diplomatic policy worthy of the name: this is an extremely complicated moment, but Brussels must do more. Trump on one side, Putin on the other, then the Iranians and Netanyahu on yet another.” Bingo! Conte would never have drawn up a list like that. Or at the very least, he would have included Zelensky as well. “Oh come on, now. The M5S colleagues I work with on the Social Affairs Committee are knowledgeable and sensible.”

It’s unlikely that war will actually be discussed there. Many members of the PD, on the other hand, argue that the Movement has nothing to do with the left, and that this is merely an alliance of convenience – one that is becoming increasingly uncomfortable. “Some members of the PD. Not many. Disagreements within each party must be dealt with within that party itself.” And what about those in the coalition? “We need to understand what we really need. Without honest, coherent and shared policies, it’s going to be tough, but I’m optimistic: politics is made by doing it. And I can see that we’re building a great deal, that together we’re representing a diverse Italy.” There’s no doubt about it. From Kyiv to Moscow. Does anyone need a solicitor?