Bertinotti’s hobbyhorse. “Primaries cause confusion; a central committee would be better. There is a risk of revolt and the emergence of more radical leaders.”

“Do you know what a ‘ruffiano’ horse is? It’s the sort of horse that leads you astray, makes you lose sight of your goal, and confuses you. When I hear talk of centre-left primaries, I feel as though I’m seeing a ‘ruffiano’ horse. Meloni won’t be defeated by ‘ruffiano’ horses.” And what does Fausto Bertinotti see? “A time of radicalism that could lead to a profound uprising even in Italy. There is discontent, more than people realise.” Is the Left in a state of discontent? “There is no Left in Italy. The Left is this, the centre is that, and the Right is the other. Do you know what we need instead of primaries? A proper central committee; otherwise, ‘hic Rhodus, hic salta’.”

Moving on from Bertinotti’s visit to Conte – who is looking for any excuse to break the alliance – to Schlein, who now says: ‘One is not worth one’. This is the first time the PD secretary has responded to Conte, and it is also the first time that the sole thread linking the M5S to the left has been severed. When Schlein uttered the word ‘pride’ at the PD executive meeting, there were MPs who quietly asked themselves, ‘If one isn’t worth one, then isn’t “woke” not worth anything either?’. I ask Bertinotti, who is about to leave (“travelling, flying”), whether he believes the left is capable of defeating Meloni – who is ready for the vote, even going so far as to trademark her voice – and whether the primaries will ultimately go ahead. Bertinotti, as a former Speaker of the Chamber of Deputies and former secretary of Rifondazione Comunista, confides that he, too, hears the echo of this word reaching his ears, day after day, nagging at him. He makes it clear to me that he plugs his ears, just as Gaetano Manfredi, the mayor of Naples, does – the man who prefers to serve as president of ANCI and write articles on the housing crisis. And so Bertinotti pulls the metaphor of the horse out of his spectacles case: “The country is reeling, like a horse when it loses its jockey. Mind you, Meloni is worn down. She can’t puff out her chest. Much of her support stems from the left’s incompetence. The number of people taking part in the vote has shrunk. When I say that the primaries are like a pimping horse, I mean that the left is on the wrong track; it speaks to a world above that isn’t the world below.”

Is choosing a leader, a figurehead for the coalition, perhaps irrelevant? Bertinotti, with his resonant voice, believes that even Conte and Schlein risk being overtaken as leaders by a new figure, a ‘red swan’. He therefore speaks to me of ‘new radicalism’, of leaders who are not yet in sight but who could emerge unexpectedly, even with a vengeance: “The Left does not have a problem with primaries but with the people. Even this debate over primaries is proof that the Left, as it stands, has already lost. Paris is flooded with students protesting and overturning rubbish bins; in New York, a Muslim mayor has been elected. The time for the race towards moderation is over. It is over on the right, and it is over on the left too.”

I ask him who our Mélenchon is. Does he exist? Is it perhaps Conte? Bertinotti, like D’Alema who has published "Eravamo comunisti" (Feltrinelli), is reintroducing the tools of a bygone era which he claims is returning: ‘If you think about the primaries, against the overwhelming logic of the new capitalism, you’re treading water. The Italian education system is riven by deep unease. The right and the left are bobbing along in lukewarm waters, but what happens if the temperature rises? Movements are growing in favour of house requisitioning and in support of Palestine. There is an upheaval that is changing everything, and the left should be in this underworld, seeking out the non-voters in this underground realm.”

Are we looking for a solution to these non-primary elections? Bertinotti replies, then, as a party leader from the 1970s might have done: “You see, this problem of who leads the coalition would be resolved just as the Communists used to resolve it: a Central Committee meeting or a general assembly of the coalition is convened, lasting three days. Three days, and then you make a choice. If politics is sidelined, as is happening with the primaries, it will seem as though the Left is competing solely for power, for government. It will be out of touch with the world below.” Otherwise? “A protest could break out in Italy. It is the unexpected that changes history. There is a need for radicalism, and the leaders, believe me, will emerge.” How does Bertinotti experience these times? “Sometimes I look on with sadness; sometimes I think of all the wonderful and interesting things happening in the world in defiance of the crushing logic of capitalism.” And Bertinotti is riding the wave of the revolution.