Kyiv, allies, the economy, the future. Victory is possible. Meloni on all fronts

The future, the past, the record, Ukraine, fears, hopes, disappointments, and then Trump, the AfD, Europe, Draghi, Conte, Schlein, and that law we need to work on together, anti-Semitism, the economy, the starting points for a fresh beginning, the wounds to be healed. And then the glue. This interview with Giorgia Meloni does not touch on voting preferences, electoral thresholds, electoral laws, coalition rumours, controversies with Vannacci, or political manoeuvring with the opposition. This interview covers other matters: it discusses the four years of Meloni’s government, what has worked, what has not worked, what should work better, what may have disappointed Meloni, where Meloni may have disappointed voters, what may have surprised her critics, and what needs to be addressed in the coming months to try to think about the future, not only the future of the government but also the future of the centre-right, without clinging to memories of the past, however remarkable they may have been. Giorgia Meloni spoke to Il Foglio just a few hours after learning of the death of Emma Bonino, for whom the government has decided to hold a state funeral next week. “Emma Bonino and I,” Meloni said yesterday, “were two women who were very far apart on the issues. But that never prevented me from respecting her as a person, her expertise, her authority and her ability to understand that the role of women in this society, including in politics, is never something you have to wait for.”

Content, indeed. President Meloni, let’s start here. The record has been set, as we know, but referendums aside, in these 1,420 days in government, what is your greatest regret? “I have no real regrets. Perhaps I regret having thought it was enough simply to get things done, even when I was unable to convey the full extent of the work. I have always been convinced that facts speak much louder than any narrative. Today, however, I realise that it would have been important to raise greater awareness of all our work. Because Sabino Cassese is right when he says that this government has churned out measures every week, and those measures have substance and objectives. If you think about it, it’s a huge amount of work, and I would have liked to have been able to keep Italians better informed about the full scope of this commitment. As for the referendum on the justice system, I have no particular regrets. We had made a commitment to present a reform of the justice system, and we did so. And even though the Italian people decided not to endorse it, we did our duty.”

All sorts of things have happened around the world during these years in government. But there has been one constant for her that has remained a constant companion: Ukraine. How has Ukraine changed Europe over the past few years? And in what ways has Ukraine, over the past few years, had a positive influence on the shaping of Giorgia Meloni’s identity and the redefinition of the concept of patriotism? “Russia’s attempt to conquer Kyiv has roused Europe from a long slumber and from the illusion that it was safe from the great risks of the past. The war in Ukraine has shown that history is far from over and that the era in which the Old Continent could delegate its security to others is over. Despite many contradictions and hesitations, Europe has managed to react with far greater determination than anyone could have imagined, and certainly more than Moscow expected. And it is true that Ukraine’s incredible resistance has led many Europeans to rediscover a sense of identity and patriotism. Concepts that many considered outdated, but certainly not those in my political community, which has always placed the homeland and national identity at the heart of its actions. As far as I am concerned, I have always believed that patriotism is a very serious matter. It is not just a flag to wave, or an anthem to sing. When you call yourself a patriot, the first question you must answer is: are you capable of putting your country before yourself? That is the crux of the matter. You see, for me, in recent years it would have been more advantageous electorally not to support Ukraine than to do so. Except that I didn’t support Ukraine for Kyiv’s sake; I supported Ukraine for Rome’s sake. Because, as I have said many times, Italy would have everything to lose in an international context where the rules of peaceful coexistence between nations break down and the law of the strongest prevails once again. And, unfortunately, we have been getting a taste of that scenario in recent years.”

Would Giorgia Meloni be prepared to lay down a rule for the future coalition – a rule that, it seems, does not yet apply on the left: no alliance with so-called patriots who vote against supporting Ukraine? “Giorgia Meloni is certainly not prepared to do the opposite of what she has done so far, or of what she believes in, for the sake of political or electoral expediency. I am a serious person, and I am not a jack-of-all-trades. Anyone looking for a prime minister who changes their mind depending on the support of this or that party, solely for personal gain, should look elsewhere. And I think I know where, because we’ve been there before.” 

Throughout your political career, you have always regarded military spending as an investment, not a cost. Why is it demagogic to argue, today, that military spending is at odds with welfare spending? And what do you think of politicians, such as Giuseppe Conte, who claim that Putin ‘is not a threat to Europe’? “For a nation, military spending is akin to the costs a family incurs to ensure the security of their home. We would all like to be able to do without a security door, window bars or insurance against unforeseen events. Unfortunately, however, life and the world are far crueller than we would like them to be, and above all than they are portrayed by the many well-meaning advocates of ideological pacifism. Throughout history, no state has ever guaranteed the security of its borders and its citizens without possessing the military capability to defend itself. Of course, it is unpopular to say that we must also spend on defence. But unfortunately, it is necessary. And I am proud of the fact that, on this point, Fratelli d’Italia has never resorted to demagoguery. I would add that entrusting one’s security to others does not necessarily mean saving those resources. Those who take on the task of guaranteeing your defence are unlikely to do so without expecting something in return, perhaps in the form of favourable trade agreements. As for the question of whether or not Russia is a threat to Italy and Europe, I think that, in any case, it is far wiser to ensure that we are not easily vulnerable to attack than to rely on the assumption that we will not be attacked.”

In recent years, Europe has changed, and so too has its response to external threats – not just those from Russia. According to Mario Draghi, the future of Europe lies in the creation of a more federal Europe, capable of moving beyond the requirement for unanimity. Would Italy be prepared to give up its national veto, at least on sanctions and foreign policy, whilst retaining it on taxation? “The way the European Union operates has proved inadequate for tackling the great challenges of our time. I am pleased that we are now all in agreement that a change of direction is needed, because when we used to say this, we were accused of being anti-European. However, I do not believe that the solution lies in seeking even greater European integration, or in overcoming the unanimity rule, or in a federal Europe that supersedes the nation states; and so I disagree with Mario Draghi. Together with the family of European conservatives, I have always believed that the exact opposite is needed: namely, a confederal model for Europe, in which Member States retain broad sovereignty but cooperate more effectively on matters of strategic importance. It is a vision that is gaining ever more ground, to the extent that several Member States are now calling for the use of enhanced cooperation.”

President Meloni. It is true that the Italian economy has more people in work: from 2022 to the present day, the number has risen by 1.079 million. But the Italian economy continues to face serious problems: low growth, fragile industrial production, weak productivity, a high tax burden and high energy costs. Which of these problems do you believe has been inherited, and which could be described as an issue that the government could have resolved more effectively – and which constitutes a genuine weakness of these years in government? “The results in the employment sector are undoubtedly extraordinary. We have created more than one million new jobs, with a very significant trend: precarious employment is falling and stable employment is rising. So much so that permanent employment contracts have increased by as many as 1.3 million since this Government took office. I consider this figure, more than any other, to demonstrate how Italy is now in a better position than it was four years ago. Only those who have never experienced the hardship of unemployment and a lack of income can fail to understand what it means for a family to have an extra salary to fall back on. As for the problems you have listed, these are, unfortunately, structural weaknesses that our nation has been grappling with for many years and for which there are no easy solutions. But it is essential to set out on the right path to resolve them over time. The tax burden index has not fallen in recent years, but the taxes paid by businesses, workers and households have been reduced, and that is what matters. Thanks to our measures, an employee earning 26,000 euros a year benefits from an annual saving ranging from a minimum of 1,200 euros to a maximum of 2,400 euros, and for a working mother these figures are considerably higher. Meanwhile, the self-employed have benefited from the extension of the flat tax. “Given the limited resources available in recent years, it was objectively difficult to do more.” And what about growth? “Speaking of economic growth, albeit in a very difficult and uncertain context, the Italian economy is holding up well, and the figures for the first six months of the year could lead to 1 per cent growth in 2026, in line with, if not higher than, that of the eurozone. It is also true that the Italian economy has been struggling for many years now to achieve sustained and steady growth. You yourself have mentioned some of the contributing factors, ranging from energy costs – which hamper the competitiveness of Italian businesses, despite their ability to achieve record exports – to low productivity. This latter issue, for example, is partly inherent to our production system – consisting mainly of micro and small enterprises – and partly due to insufficient investment in innovation, research and human capital. We are working in this direction, but it is a process whose effects will only become apparent in the medium term.” And what about energy? “The same applies to energy costs. Our heavy reliance on foreign supplies is a structural issue which we have addressed and are continuing to address on several fronts: from diversifying supply sources – including by accelerating the roll-out of renewables – to a return to nuclear power, particularly next-generation nuclear, which we believe could be the real solution for our energy security, right through to the latest measures to speed up concessions for the exploration and extraction of hydrocarbons; we are doing everything in our power to make the country more self-sufficient and bring down costs. That said, it weighs heavily on my mind that I have not been able to do more for households and businesses specifically with regard to high energy prices, despite having devoted – particularly at the start of this parliamentary term – a significant portion of the available resources to tackling the problem. We will continue to do so during this phase as well.”

One of the government’s key achievements has been to make Italy – partly through stability – more reliable and more attractive. Why do you think that having a centre-left government in the future would make Italy less reliable, less attractive and more vulnerable? “Italy is now more reliable and attractive because it is finally a stable and credible nation. And this has been made possible in part by a strategy pursued over the years by a united political majority. And if, in the future, Italians decide to place their trust in someone else, I hope it will be someone who will not squander this precious legacy. Because we are always rooting for Italy, no matter what.”

What criticism has hurt Giorgia Meloni the most over the years? And, looking back on it today, which criticism contained at least a grain of truth? “I chose to go into politics on the right, so I’m more than used to criticism. But I don’t ignore it, because it can push you to improve. Of course, over the years I’ve been accused of everything, even of having blood on my hands and of being responsible for the death of an unvaccinated little girl. I believe these are accusations that say more about those who make them than anything else. And, in any case, I can take a lot. What did hurt me, however, was seeing people who care about me being attacked or insulted simply to get at me. If there’s one criticism that has made me reflect, it’s when I was told: ‘You see, now that you’re at Palazzo Chigi, you realise just how difficult it is to govern the nation’. It’s absolutely true because, as I’ve said, there have been days when I’ve felt as though I were swimming in glue. There are thousands of obstacles that you can’t see from the outside, which make everything seem much easier than it actually is.”

In recent weeks, the broader political spectrum has argued that Sánchez is a role model because, in recent years, Spain has carried out more deportations and allowed fewer irregular migrants to enter than Italy. On the issue of deportations and the fight against irregular migration, is it the left that needs to learn something from Meloni, or is it Italy that can also learn something from Spain? “First of all, I haven’t quite understood: is the Italian left calling for more or less strict measures against mass illegal immigration? Because ever since we came to power, we have been accused every day of being ‘inhuman’, because we prevent those who would like to enter illegally from doing so and because we want to deport from Italy those who live here without being entitled to do so. My question is: has the Left’s position changed? I’d like to know. That said, I proudly assert that on these issues Italy has managed to take the lead in Europe, that even socialist-led governments are now following our example, and that a large part of our positions – deemed heretical four years ago – have been incorporated into European legislation. The most obvious example is that of repatriation hubs in third countries, modelled on the protocol with Albania, which so many tried to obstruct in every possible way but which has now been transposed at EU level.”

At the start of the year, you said you would have liked to do more on security. What would you have liked to do that you didn’t? “I seem to recall saying that I would do more, and that is what I have done. After all, security has always been a priority for this government. This is demonstrated by the many measures put in place, from the Caivano decree to the security and immigration decrees, which have yielded tangible results. I am referring to the sharp fall in arrivals by sea, the decline in murders, thefts and robberies, and the strengthening of security presence across the country, starting with that at railway stations. We have invested in the defence and security sector like no one before us, planned to recruit 45,000 new officers into the police force, increased their salaries – which had remained frozen for years – and provided legal protection for them in the course of their duties. I am fully aware that Italians expect more, and rightly so. I am the first to want more, because ensuring security is the state’s primary duty towards its citizens. We are doing our utmost to play our part, but it is important that all parts of the state do the same, and that no one pulls in the opposite direction. This is particularly true when it comes to urban crime. We have introduced a series of measures such as the ‘daspo urbano’ (urban stadium ban), the establishment of ‘red zones’, stricter controls on knives and changes to the criminal liability of minors; but when it comes to these forms of crime, in my view, we need to be even more uncompromising. On this point, I have not yet done everything I would have liked to do.”

Has the complicated relationship with Trump – to put it mildly, the President – strengthened Europe’s Atlanticism, or has it finally forced Europe to realise that it cannot delegate its security to America indefinitely? “This second Trump presidency initially provoked some overreactions due to ideological opposition, even before any differences of opinion had arisen. To think we could do everything on our own, straight away, after years in which the EU has pursued misguided policies that have increased our strategic dependencies – from defence to energy, from technology to critical raw materials – was and remains unrealistic. We must continue to believe in our transatlantic alliance, which safeguards the values of our Western civilisation, and which retains its value regardless of who sits in the White House. And we must strengthen the European pillar of this alliance, by developing our defence systems integrated within NATO, and by building reliable value chains, starting with European production but integrating components from friendly nations when doing everything on our own is not possible. In short, on the one hand, a clear cultural and geopolitical horizon – the West; on the other, a healthy pragmatism that enables us to develop effective European solutions to support competitiveness and prevent the deindustrialisation of Europe.”

Madam President, let’s not beat about the bush: are you concerned about the rise of the AfD? The rise of the AfD in Saxony-Anhalt? And will that rise have consequences in Italy? “For years now, political movements have been growing across Europe that prioritise the defence of identity, the fight against mass illegal immigration, and the danger of the Islamisation of Europe. In the face of these movements, the establishment’s reaction has very often been to try to create ‘cordon sanitaire’, rather than addressing the issues on their merits. As we can see, this is a strategy that does not work. What does work, however, is listening to those concerns and responding. This is what the centre-right in Italy is doing, with serious, non-demagogic solutions: in the fight against illegal immigration, the defence of borders, the protection of the most vulnerable groups, attention to the suburbs, and the central importance of work. Here, the political context is radically different from what we see in Germany and other countries.”

In recent years, the right wing has chosen – to some people’s surprise – to place the fight against antisemitism at the centre of its agenda. Has the opposition shown the same level of commitment on this issue? “Combating all forms of antisemitism should be a goal shared by all the nation’s cultural, social and political forces. What is happening at the moment regarding the anti-Semitism bill is the revival of a debate that has already taken place in the previous parliamentary term following the establishment of the so-called ‘Segre Commission’. On that occasion, Fratelli d’Italia had proposed adopting the IHRA definition, thereby including not only Nazi-Fascist forms of anti-Semitism, but also those linked to Islamist fundamentalism and which advocate the annihilation of the State of Israel. The majority at the time chose to reject this proposal, which is now being put forward again and is dividing the left. Because the truth is that a significant section of their electorate finds it difficult to unequivocally condemn all forms of anti-Semitism, believing that there may be a form of anti-Semitism that is morally acceptable. As was also evidenced by the presence of those chanting in support of Hamas at the last demonstration organised outside Montecitorio.”

Is there a bill you would like to pass together with the opposition before the end of the parliamentary term? “Well, I understand there is scope to jointly approve the extension of the single Southern Italy Special Economic Zone (ZES) scheme – starting with the simplification measures – to the whole of the country. I’ve heard Elly Schlein say that the extension is now a proposal from the ‘Campo Largo’ coalition, and I consider this a huge step forward, given that when we launched the single Special Economic Zone, they called it ‘a failure waiting to happen’. What can I say? They’ve realised they were wrong and will therefore back our proposal for extension. I’m delighted about that. Of course, if the only joint proposal they have within the ‘Campo Largo’ coalition is a measure we drafted, I’d say they’re a bit behind on their programme.”

On the subject of cross-cutting legislation. As you will have seen, in many right-wing governments, same-sex marriage is no longer considered a divisive issue. Do you think Italy will eventually introduce equal marriage? And, if that were to happen, would you consider it a cultural defeat? “I think the current legal framework is balanced and based on common sense. And that it does not need to be changed.” We began, Mr President, by discussing your disappointments over recent years. Looking back over these four years, what is one source of pride that you will take with you? “My greatest source of pride is having protected the nation during very difficult years, and having done so in every area. Of having protected Italians’ savings in the face of the risk of a financial storm; of having protected the nation’s borders from mass illegal immigration whilst instability raged all around us. Of having protected Italian businesses from the risk of a proliferation of ideological measures aimed at industrial decline. Of having protected families, stepping in whenever necessary to deal with emergencies. That we have protected workers, by making it more advantageous for companies to hire or retain them. And that we have protected wages, which have resumed growing at a rate higher than inflation. That we have protected the police, so that they can protect citizens more effectively against crime. And that we have protected Italy’s reputation, which is now heeded and respected. And I could give many other examples.”

In the past, you conducted this exercise with your guests at Atreju; today we are applying it to you. Please indicate whether there is a book, film or television series you would unreservedly recommend to Giuseppe Conte, Elly Schlein, Matteo Renzi, Carlo Calenda, Matteo Salvini, Roberto Vannacci or Antonio Tajani. “For Conte and Schlein, I would recommend "Una poltrona per due", and I do not believe an explanation is necessary. To Renzi, Back to the Future, for a touch of nostalgia for years gone by. To Calenda, The Last of the Mohicans, for the tenacity with which he opposes left-wing extremism. For Vannacci, I would recommend The Wizard of Oz, because the figure who projects his gigantic image at the end of the film is somewhat reminiscent of the AI-generated videos portraying him as a muscular leader, only to then see him competing in swimming events with Renzi. To Tajani and Salvini, I’d recommend Stranger Things, a marvellous series, because watching that seemingly unlikely group fighting a battle bigger than themselves often made me smile, thinking of these past few years.”