Bonelli: “Re-armament is madness. Enough weapons for Ukraine – Von der Leyen is embarrassing”

This is not a remake of Paolo Virzì’s film “Siccità”: it is Angelo Bonelli and Nicola Fratoianni, the dynamic duo behind Avs. They are speaking live from the bed of the dried-up River Tiber in a corner of Umbria, to sound a stark warning about the climate crisis and present a report on “water wastage in Italy”. We’ll return to this topic during our interview with Bonelli, co-founder of a broad-based political movement in search of a leader and a programme, but for now, the opening salvo is a direct, green ‘j’accuse’ aimed squarely at Giorgia Meloni, although Bonelli is keen to stress that he “certainly does not wish to attribute responsibility for the climate crisis to the Prime Minister”. Far from it. And yet “Italy is burning, desertification in Sicily stands at 71 per cent, extreme weather events have already caused 20 billion euros’ worth of damage, but the government is doing nothing. Why this attitude of denial – or rather, climate indifference?” The question is directed at Palazzo Chigi, but in the meantime let’s also get straight to the heart of the issue that divides both sides of the political spectrum: European defence spending (and therefore the SAFE programme, but also NATO, rearmament and aid to Ukraine). When faced with the word ‘NATO’, what does Bonelli have to say? “No one is talking about leaving NATO. But in the face of a global geopolitical shift, in which Donald Trump poses as much of a threat as Vladimir Putin and Benjamin Netanyahu, and a new geopolitical order built on military supremacy and the dismantling of international law, the question is: what kind of Europe do we want to build? My answer is: a Europe that remains within NATO but forges its own common foreign and defence policy.” The international situation is “extremely worrying”, says Bonelli. So is NATO necessary, and is SAFE necessary too? “I do not share the view of those in Parliament – and it is not just the Prime Minister who says this – who argue that ‘we prepare for peace by arming ourselves’.” Globally, in 2025, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, global military spending reached a record figure of 2,887 billion dollars, an increase of 2.9 per cent on the previous year, whilst at the same time conflicts have escalated with alarming intensity, exacerbating political and economic instability. And one thing must be made clear.” Let’s say it. “There are already plenty of weapons on this planet. And it is not true, as our detractors claim, that we want to leave Europe defenceless. Europe’s problem, I repeat, is having a common foreign and defence policy. On this point, we at AVS are absolutely in favour, and it is a significant factor from a political standpoint: this is not the position of the Prime Minister or Salvini’s League.” But how do we finance this common defence? Foreign Minister Antonio Tajani has said he has ‘set aside’ 14.9 billion from the SAFE fund. You don’t like the SAFE fund. “I say we must start with what we already have: Italy is already the world’s tenth-largest military power; Europe spends 600 billion euros a year on armaments, far more than China and Russia. The issue today is not how much more we spend on arms, but how we streamline and coordinate defence across the various member states. And it terrifies me to see Germany rearming, with investments totalling 500 billion euros and the AfD at 30 per cent. Re-armament is madness, whatever Economy Minister Giorgetti may say: we cannot afford to take on further debt, but I repeat: Europe must develop its own defence policy. And since some will object that this is complicated because it is linked to the reform of the European Union due to the veto mechanism, I would also say that we are in favour of reforming the veto mechanism. It is Giorgia Meloni who is opposed to this. I reject the accusation that the broad coalition is not united on foreign policy: there are strategic issues on which the right has enormous and very serious problems.”

However, an opposition party that aspires to govern and must draft its manifesto must be clear: are you saying that, given all the problems Italy is facing, you do not want to incur further defence expenditure? “No. According to the Milex Observatory, Italy – quite apart from the SAFE programme – is already committed to significant industrial investment projects in armaments, ranging from fighter jets to destroyers”. Shouldn’t the naval battle, so to speak, come at the expense of the social one? “To say that, through SAFE, we must reach the famous 5 per cent is madness; it is unsustainable from an economic and social point of view, and the Italian people must be told: it means not investing in other areas. Giorgetti and Meloni say ‘we’ll do both’, so why are they failing to reduce energy costs and create the conditions for investment in public healthcare, education and research – sectors which are below OECD levels on the European investment scale?” There is no consensus within the two political blocs on spending for military aid to Ukraine. Bonelli, from the centre-left – where Elly Schlein firmly supports the military defence of Kyiv – says: “We are not in favour of honouring the 5 per cent of GDP commitment, a commitment that Meloni made without going through Parliament, so there is no binding obligation. Nor are we in favour of putting flowers in the barrels of guns. But we cannot ignore the fact that we live in an era in which Trump, Putin and Netanyahu have demolished international law. Our aim is to ensure that Italy takes the lead in Europe in rebuilding international law. This means not applying double standards: if, quite rightly, Russia is subject to economic sanctions because it has violated international law, it is unclear why Israel should not be equally sanctioned, given its extremely serious violations of international law – and this is quite apart from my personal judgement: a systematic extermination/genocide has been carried out in Gaza. The International Criminal Court has been undermined; attempts have been made to delegitimise the United Nations; there were plans to set up a ‘Board of Peace’, with Tajani attending those disgraceful meetings, MAGA cap in hand. It is therefore essential for Italy to take action to restore international law and eliminate double standards. Sanctions against Ukraine are justified.” And what about military aid? “We do not agree. After four years of Putin’s criminal war, with a million casualties – the wounded and the dead – on both sides, I would like to see a Europe that adopts not a stance of rearmament, but one of ‘OK, let’s pause for a moment and try to engage with this interlocutor towards whom Putin has shown some openness – we’ll see if he’s bluffing. But to continue, year after year, a war that could last another ten years, thinking that there might be a military victory for Kyiv – no.” The Italian Greens, however, take a clearer stance against rearmament than the European Greens. “There are slightly different positions among the Greens in the Baltic states, who feel the issue more keenly because they are closer to the threat posed by Putin, but in Italy and across Europe we hold identical positions on foreign policy and common defence. It is an issue on which we also find common ground with the PD and the M5S. As for the €800 billion proposed by EU Commission President Ursula von der Leyen for EU rearmament, I say: no, thank you.” Does Bonelli not like von der Leyen’s approach? “It’s embarrassing. Von der Leyen has managed to change her position several times depending on which way the wind was blowing. Initially, she championed the Green Deal, the ecological transition and the pesticide regulation; then, with the rise of far-right parties and the resulting shift in stance within the European People’s Party – particularly among the Germans grappling with the AfD issue – von der Leyen began to dismantle climate policies. A textbook example of how to cling to power at any cost.” There is agreement with the M5S on foreign policy and common defence, says Bonelli. But Giuseppe Conte, speaking on stage at the Campo Grande in Naples, said that the Russian threat is a sort of political ploy to justify rearmament. Is he wrong? “We’ve discussed this, and the accusations levelled at him are unfounded.” In what sense? “Conte said that Russia does not pose a threat that would justify rearmament, and I agree with him on that. I believe that it is Trump, Putin and Netanyahu who pose a threat to international law and to Europe with their logic of seeking to establish supremacy through military force – a threat to which we must respond, I repeat, through a European defence and foreign policy and by defending the UN, the International Criminal Court and, therefore, international law”. Putin, however, continues to threaten the EU. “Conte was Prime Minister; he has a sense of statehood and knows that when you govern a country, you must defend it – including against cyber-attacks and attempts to influence it. Were we in government, we would be the first to defend the state’s interests in the face of threats from Putin, just as we would against attempts to influence us by American MAGA platforms. Today, unfortunately, we are completely lacking in autonomy in terms of technology and energy, and not just because we buy gas. And Giorgia Meloni bears a great responsibility in this regard, because she was under Trump’s thumb. I thought patriots wanted to build energy autonomy, but instead we find ourselves in the opposite situation: one of heavy dependence.” And are you still firmly opposed to nuclear power? “We’re not opposed to research, provided it’s for civilian rather than military purposes. But nuclear power is a massive farce. Meloni brings it up after four years of governing the country and after spending 37 billion euros trying to reduce the cost of energy and fuel. Well, after four years, not only have they failed to reduce it, but they’ve done the oil companies a favour. What on earth are we talking about?”

Italian front. The electoral law is moving forward, as is the possibility of primaries. Will you put forward your own candidate? Or two candidates, one for each component of Avs? “We do not want to resign ourselves to telling our allies that discussing who will be the leader without explaining how we intend to govern Italy and transform the country in terms of taxation, wages, education, healthcare, waiting lists and the climate crisis is impractical and unacceptable.” Schlein also says “the programme comes first”, but the prospect of primaries seems to be drawing inexorably closer. “It’s impractical to want to talk about individuals if there isn’t first a strong and transparent pact with the Italian people on what we want to achieve. And it’s not enough to say: ‘We want to oust the right’.” But if there were to be primaries, what would you do? “We’ll meet in September to finalise the programme. After that, we’ll work towards a political agreement on the leader, because both Fratoianni and I believe that primaries aren’t the best way to choose a leader.” And if no agreement is reached? “At that point, we’d consider how to enter the race as Avs. We’ve always surprised everyone; we’ll do so again this time.” Speaking of the manifesto, CGIL leader Maurizio Landini, and a section of the PD, are proposing various forms of a wealth tax: on assets over two million euros, applying only to the 200 millionaires. Bonelli does not endorse Landini’s wealth tax and would not call it a wealth tax: “Partly for technical and legal reasons – given that the Constitutional Court has ruled on the so-called double taxation on several occasions – I would rather speak, after adjusting the personal income tax rates to ease the burden on the middle class, of a solidarity levy with a specific purpose: a levy on the wealth of hyper-billionaires, for a limited period of three or four years, which would enable us to resolve certain issues, starting with healthcare.” Let’s move on to employment. The Jobs Act? “Needs reviewing”. On the subject of security. In recent days, the clashes in Val di Susa and the unrest in Bologna have raised the question of how to avoid being associated with extremist fringe groups. Azione leader Carlo Calenda points the finger at AVS. “It is despicable that Calenda and the right speak of us in this way; let them produce the evidence. Ever since I was a boy, I have practised non-violence and have always denounced it. And the violent protesters in the streets are our political opponents. It has also become clear that the clashes in Chiomonte were orchestrated internationally, by people throwing Molotov cocktails. Where was Minister Piantedosi? Was he asleep? A section of the right, including Calenda, is using these events to attack us, but we are victims too. Ultimately, all this benefits the right and harms us.” Bonelli is the son of a carabiniere. Isn’t it time, on the left, to put an end to the blanket demonisation of the police, whilst still condemning abuses? “I have great faith in the police; they are an instrument at the service of democracy. But when someone makes a mistake, they must pay. Look at the corrupt policeman in Rogoredo; look at the Cucchi case.” Could a clear condemnation of street violence and the isolation of violent individuals be a point in the programme? “Certainly. But in the meantime, the right has exploited the situation. What happened has played right into their hands. And I wouldn’t want anyone to have thought: let them get on with it; we’ll just take it out on Avs anyway.” For a defender of due process like Bonelli, do the Salis and Ranucci cases teach us anything? “Let’s also talk about Delmastro: we remain defenders of due process, but we’re asking ourselves a lot of questions. We put Salis forward as a candidate to save her from Orban’s regime. Ranucci, as things stand, is the victim of an attack. And it’s not as if the ‘people’s court’ of Fratelli d’Italia decides everything.”

The climate crisis is Bonelli’s pet subject. Let’s talk about it. “Meloni, on the other hand, doesn’t mention it. But we’re going through a dramatic phase. Why isn’t anything being done?” How would Bonelli tackle it? “We need a national climate adaptation plan. And we’ve tabled various bills, starting with the use of renewables. And let’s consider action plans for urban design: restoring urban woodlands, for example, means lowering the temperature by 5 degrees.” Meanwhile, summer is drawing on. In September, alongside the programme, there will be the AVS festival. Guests will include Jeremy Corbyn and Francesca Albanese.