Renzi and the lesson from the mid-term elections: “We win by standing united, on Obama’s side and not Trump’s. The guarantees demanded by Conte? Ridiculous. I’ll consider whether to stand in the primaries.”

 “Democracy is stronger than Trump. What is coming out of America is a breath of fresh air. But it is also a lesson for the centre-left.” What lesson? “We win when we stand united. It’s clear that there are differences amongst us, but they will never be as great as those that divide us from others, from the right,” Matteo Renzi tells Il Foglio. He is “thrilled by a night the global left has been waiting for for a long time”. The former prime minister discusses the mid-term election results, their consequences in America and their implications for Italy. “The era in which Meloni was chasing after her MAGA friends has finally come to an end.” Now it is up to the opposition to oust the right. How? “The key point is to stand with the Democrats, with Obama and against Trump.” Will Renzi stand in the primaries? “The most logical scenario is a two-horse race: Schlein versus Conte. If that is not the case, everyone will make their own assessments.” (Montenegro continues in supplement IV)

Let us proceed in order. “First of all,” says Renzi, “yesterday was a marvellous day, especially for those of us who grew up with Clinton and Obama’s Democratic Party.” The Democrats have taken both the Chamber of Deputies and the Senate. In Italy, the (former) pro-Trump right is lying low. On the left, from James Talarico to Abdul El Sayed, everyone is claiming victory in their own way. What is your take on it? “Firstly: the era in which the Italian right-wing followed Trump is over – with Meloni nominating him for the Nobel Peace Prize, Tajani donning a ‘Make America Great Again’ cap at the White House, and Salvini dressing up as a tycoon, practically a cosplay. But the era in which certain journalists – I’m talking about Marco Travaglio – explained to us that Trump would be good for Europe has also come to an end.” There’s also an issue concerning the opposition parties. “And it’s a bit more complicated,” admits the leader of IV. What do you mean? “I find the debate among those who, knowing very little about American politics, say: ‘The reformists, the extremists or the progressives have won’ to be very parochial.” Who did Renzi think won? “Democrats from all walks of life, together with many young people who make extraordinary use of the new communication tools. There is also a demographic factor as well as a sociological one.” The former prime minister analyses in particular the victory of Abdul El Sayed in Michigan, the first Muslim senator in history. “Certainly, on many issues, he does not share the reformists’ views. In the past, he heavily criticised Obama when he was President of the United States. Yet he still wanted Obama by his side during the election campaign. Clinton also came out in support against Trump,” recalls Renzi. He urges his allies to learn from this. “To all those who are now conducting in-depth analyses of individual candidates’ levels of progressivism, I say: just how much provincialism must we still put up with?”

Does this apply in America as well as in Italy? “It applies to Trump and to Meloni. When the time comes to choose, after years of far-right government, it is votes that count, not vetoes. The divisions do not disappear, of course. But we must find unity in order to win.” After all, according to Renzi, on the other side lies the “sovereignty of the coffers”. The very thing driving the exit tax. “In effect, it’s a disguised wealth tax: it deters new investors from coming to Italy. No one will come here anymore knowing they’ll be ‘held captive’ by a tax. And it also reinforces the principle that we do not believe in the free movement of capital. Had the left proposed it, there’d be an outcry at Palazzo Chigi,” Renzi argues. “But these people have been at loggerheads with freedom ever since they were children. And the silence of industrialists and liberals is incredible, whilst they are destroying the business world and whilst Urso is closing Ilva. They are incompetent, a bunch of runaways.” Yet they risk governing again if no consensus can be reached within the broad coalition. Starting with the programme. For once, Renzi agrees with Giuseppe Conte: no to the wealth tax. And what does he think of the ‘citizenship income 2.0’? “We were the ones who introduced the inclusion income. And we’re ready to discuss measures to tackle poverty, especially if the limitations of the measure introduced by Conte have been understood. We must avoid wasting taxpayers’ money, and we need strict controls on those trying to cheat the system, because not everything has worked – quite the opposite, in fact. In this case, we’re on board, ready to discuss everything. Even conflicts of interest – I’ve tabled a bill on this; that’s all those in Parliament do. Do you know who blocked it? The lawyers.” Speaking of lawyers, Conte continues to demand guarantees regarding his place in the coalition: if he’s not on the list, no ministerial posts. “It’s ridiculous. Given what’s happening in America, our debate is embarrassing. The only guarantee we need is to remain united – I repeat – on Obama’s side, not Trump’s.”

Meanwhile, the centre is struggling to take shape; so far, every attempt has come to nothing. “For our part, we have offered our full willingness to discuss a unified list. After that, if this is not taken up, we have no qualms about standing with an independent list comprising IV and Casa Riformista, within the centre-left. We are one of the few centrist parties with a structured base of support, albeit a small one. We have two parliamentary groups, local councillors throughout Italy and a solid regional organisation. We are not afraid to face the election.” The number of candidates in the primaries will also depend on this. Is Renzi really tempted? “Like Franceschini, I believe that a two-horse race between Conte and Schlein is the most logical outcome. If, on the other hand, there are more contenders, then everyone will have to weigh up their options.” The leader of IV too.