Guerini says: “Conte is overreacting. One Vannacci is enough. The PD-M5S alliance needs to be clarified now”

“The alliance between the PD and the M5S deserves clarity now; we cannot wait for the primaries. Peace cannot mean surrender to Putin. The word ‘peace’ must be given substance. Ukraine is being supported by the supply of weapons. I would advise Giuseppe Conte not to go too far.” Speaking to Il Foglio is Lorenzo Guerini, leader of the PD reformists and former Defence Minister. Guerini, let me quote Conte’s latest remarks: if Conte wins the primaries, no weapons will be supplied to Kyiv; but if Conte loses, Schlein must do as Conte says. Would you call that an alliance or submission? “Firstly: the key political issues must be addressed politically by the coalition parties, before the primaries. Otherwise, this isn’t politics but a game of roulette. Secondly: we all want peace for Ukraine, but not at the expense of the Ukrainian people.” 

Guerini says: “Thirdly: until peace is achieved, Ukraine must be supported, including through the supply of weapons, to resist the aggressor.” Peace is not surrender. The PD’s vision of peace differs from that envisaged by Conte. The former Defence Minister goes on to explain that, as long as Putin’s drones are flying over Ukrainian and Polish skies, Kyiv must be defended and that, for the PD, “these are non-negotiable issues. Full stop. Of course, we must work towards peace, but let’s be clear: we need to give substance to this word. Peace cannot mean surrender to Putin. And the conditions for peace must be decided first and foremost by the Ukrainians.”

I ask whether, following Conte’s remarks in Asiago, his outburst against Kyiv and his ‘verdict’, the conditions exist for an alliance between the PD and the M5S. Can we trust in Conte’s loyalty? Guerini replies that he had warned of this and that clarification is now needed: “A few months ago, at a PD executive meeting, I warned of the risks of postponing discussions with our allies on the most complex issues. I saw the risks. Well, now is the time. Let us discuss this within the alliance, responsibly and clearly, with the necessary mediation required in a coalition of different parties. For my part, I cannot imagine that the progressive parties would not stand with those under attack, would not want a just peace for Ukraine, or would not want a stronger and safer Europe. Indeed, this vision is the true line of opposition to the sovereignist and right-wing International.”

I would point out that Conte is not the only one calling for the Ukrainians to be disarmed. Angelo Bonelli, too, in an interview with Il Foglio, stated that "rearmament is madness". Guerini, are you "mad"? Is the PD a ship of fools? Guerini first smiles and then speaks of a missed opportunity on the part of the opposition. He is of the view that, rather than focusing on the divisions within the Meloni government or on SAFE, part of the opposition preferred to target its biggest ally, the PD, and its leader. Guerini reflects: “Look, the development of European defence – which everyone claims to want – depends on strengthening our common military capabilities. And this also depends on increased investment. However, politically speaking, we were faced with a centre-right in disarray over the use of SAFE, divided over the aid package for Ukraine – which they have, in fact, postponed until a later date – and the opposition, instead of launching an attack, began to nit-pick at the positions of the coalition’s largest party, as expressed by its secretary.”

We keep circling round Conte, who stands out, Conte who complains about Schlein’s attention towards Draghi… Guerini, don’t you think Conte is looking for a way to break the alliance? The former minister speaks of the weight of responsibility that even Conte cannot escape. He adds: “Breaking the alliance – now that would be madness. It would mean taking on an enormous responsibility after the difficult and as yet unfinished work of recent years in building an alternative to the right.” I ask him what lies behind the former prime minister’s recent outbursts, and Guerini responds by pointing to the M5S’s positioning and Grillo’s reappearance: “I think Conte’s recent comments have much more modest aims: political positioning ahead of any primaries and to contain certain pressures within his own camp. With an eye on the row with Grillo. I understand it all, of course. I’d just advise him not to overdo it.” Within the PD, there are those who have effectively begun to describe Conte as the “Vannacci of the broad coalition”.

Both Vannacci and Conte hold the same positions on Russia and gas. In Italy, political colours foreshadow future governments. Is there any evidence of a yellow-black coalition? Guerini, as if to dismiss the idea, replies: “One Vannacci is enough for us…”. What happens if Schlein were to lose the primaries? Will the PD leave Kyiv to its fate? Will it change its stance to align with Conte? The former minister defends the secretary because “there will be time for the primaries”. He recalls Schlein’s beautiful, clear and precise words: “What I can tell you is that aid, in whatever form, to Ukraine to achieve peace will never cease. As Schlein told her newspaper, this is not up for debate.”

Tomorrow, Giorgetti will address the Chamber of Deputies on the NEC, the clause concerning energy, and the discussion will inevitably turn to SAFE and defence. The PD risks appearing divided, yet again, accused by Conte of being a party of "warmongers". I ask Guerini: how will the PD vote? “SAFE is a cost-effective financial instrument made available by Europe. It strengthens the European perspective on defence. It encourages industrial cooperation. It prioritises ‘buy European’. So, the debate should focus on these issues. But I can see that many people don’t care about the ‘why’. It’s not about reasons but about impulses. And you can’t build good policy on impulses.”

Another hot topic of late is Meloni’s ‘closed-door’ policy pitted against Sánchez’s ‘open-door’ approach. What is the PD’s model on migrants? Is it the Ceuta model? Is it true that you are following in Sánchez’s footsteps? Guerini, with pride – the PD’s pride – rejects the narrative of an unprepared left: ‘Excuse me, but after four years of right-wing government, is it still the left’s fault? When will this game end? Let them give us a date from which they will start to take responsibility for their choices. That said, what happened in Ceuta still needs to be fully understood: the manner, timing and scale of the incident raise questions that perhaps go beyond the Supreme Court’s ruling. Let the controversies and political exploitation settle, and perhaps we will be able to form a more complete judgement.”

Guerini, the role model, then? “To answer your question, I believe that managing legal immigration, combating people-smugglers, establishing humanitarian corridors and implementing integration policies are the hallmarks of a responsible policy. The issue of migration will continue to affect Europe and our country for many years to come. And we certainly won’t resolve it with slogans.” Is Conte better, or the “madmen” like Guerini?