Gentiloni defends the EU: “It has pursued an excellent foreign policy on Ukraine. Schlein? She’s right to stand firm on Kyiv.”

"I agree with the words used by Elly Schlein on the need to continue supporting Ukraine. The opposition alliance must take account of the PD’s view, which, regardless of internal nuances, is very clear. Credit must be given to Elly on this point.” This was stated by the former European Commissioner for Economic Affairs and former Prime Minister Paolo Gentiloni, in an interview with Paola Peduzzi at Il Foglio’s Festival of Optimism. “The issue has become decisive in terms of everyone’s attitude towards democracy and Europe. There can be no compromise on support for Ukraine. That does not mean there cannot be differing positions, but on this point there must be no compromise,” he says. He continues: “If the opposition comes to power, will Italy ever be able to change its position on the war? Can we side with Orbán? I don’t think so. We need to tell it like it is, even at home. Foreign policy is important. But here we’re beyond simply having a common position on other issues. The dividing line today between sovereigntists and democrats is support for Ukraine. It’s about where you stand on democracy and Europe. I expect the deadlock to be resolved in the coming weeks.”

The former prime minister discusses the role of Europe. “You can play all sorts of games with words. As long as you’re in opposition, you can find a compromise by stretching the meaning of words. But then, when you’re in government, you have to make a decision. Do you support it or not? We often complain that the EU doesn’t have a foreign policy. But on this specific issue, the EU has had a superb foreign policy,” he says. He adds: “It chose to step in to support the Ukrainian resistance, without the Americans. It was a lost cause, considered by everyone to be impossible. There was even a military officer – alluding to General Roberto Vannacci – attached to the embassy in Moscow, who said that Putin’s troops would reach Kyiv in ten days.”

Speaking about the left in Europe, Gentiloni explains: “The notion that the left has disappeared strikes me as exaggerated. But it is beset by problems.” The former prime minister describes himself as “optimistic”, and says: “This surge of nationalist and anti-European right-wing sentiment is benefiting from the Trump effect, but it is not quite so unstoppable. I think it would be very difficult indeed for the pro-European and moderate forces to lose the elections in France to Ms Marine Le Pen”. He adds: “If an agreement can be reached amongst the moderate forces, Ms Le Pen will not exceed 30 per cent. To win, she would need to face an opponent with an extreme, anti-European stance, such as that of Mélenchon. Do we want to give her that help? I hope not”.

Gentiloni then speaks on defence: “It takes a great deal of optimism to say that the EU must become a power. None of the major issues facing us can be resolved by individual nation states. It is Trump who is pushing us to become a power. We must take charge of our own defence; we must be autonomous. The fact that the American president is rubbing this in our faces should spur us on,” he says. “There is one concept on which I have placed great emphasis: today we have enemies outside the EU who are raising their voices and shouting, whilst the EU’s friends, whilst aware that the European model must be defended, are making less noise. These people need to raise their voices so that Europe can become a major power.”

Finally, Gentiloni addresses the issue of European diplomacy and Trump’s announcement that he is open to purchasing Russian diesel: “I consider this decision shameful. And I would add that there is something worse: shameful and pointless decisions,” he says. He explains: “I do not believe for a moment that this move will have any impact. The amount of diesel Russia can supply is less than what would be needed to solve the problems, partly because Moscow has refining issues. But the signal is extremely serious and could get worse.” The former EU Commissioner therefore concludes: “The decision on diesel confirms President Trump’s attraction – which I find incomprehensible – to autocracies in general and to President Putin in particular.”