Mastella: “It would be madness to exclude Renzi. I can be the unifier of the centre myself, or they could call on Prodi.”

“We need someone to bring all these centres and small groups together. I’ve said it before: they can count on me. If they ask me to mediate, I’ll volunteer to do so: I’ll be the mediator.” Clemente Mastella as special envoy for the centre of the broad coalition? “I’m available: if they want, I’ll act as the ‘unifier’ of the reformist camp,” replies the former Minister of Justice and Mayor of Benevento with a laugh. “I understand that they might be wary of me, but then let them find someone else – let them call on Prodi instead – but something must be done!”

Mastella is convinced: “We need a sort of new Margherita, and, given that elections are won or lost by a narrow margin, it strikes me as politically nonsensical to sideline Renzi. It’s madness.” Yet Conte and the Five Star Movement really can’t stand the former prime minister’s name. “If Conte wants to be President of the Senate, or whatever the role may be, in the next parliamentary term,” Mastella replies, “then he must realise he cannot impose vetoes. Even without me, for example, they won’t get a single vote in Benevento and Avellino.”

Then the late founder of the Udeur carries on like a whirlwind, unstoppable, hardly ever pausing for breath: “They should rather call it the ‘formist house’; at least then perhaps something might actually take shape. They’re all taking a risk and they don’t realise it.” In what sense? “Let’s imagine that each of these lists gets 2.9 per cent, 2.7 per cent and so on: apart from one, all the others would be left out despite achieving respectable percentages and a huge number of votes… it’s suicide, a political nonsense I’ve never seen in my life.”

Renzi’s Italia Viva, Magi’s Più Europa, Onorato and his civic lists alongside Maraio’s PSI, and now Ruffini and Gabrielli with their Più Uno… it really is getting crowded: are you convinced they won’t be able to reach an agreement? “As things stand, I’m afraid not; they’re mad. Some have not been on the political scene for years, while others would like to be there, so they should begin thinking sensibly. Instead, I am witnessing surreal scenes: Onorato’s party came into being because they lent him an MP from the ranks of the M5S, and it is already clear that, if the primaries go ahead, he will back Conte. Ruffini and Gabrielli, whom I hold in high regard, would make excellent ministers in a future government, yet they’ve got it into their heads that they’re the ones who’ll bring in or win back votes… Come on! And to think that, if we were all united, the centre could reach 10 per cent today: there’d even be room to put forward a candidate for the primaries. As it is, though, it’s a disaster.”

“Let’s see” – because, Mayor Mastella, will you be there too? “If they let me lend a hand, I’ll certainly do so; otherwise, I’ll do as I please, and let no one complain afterwards. In Benevento and the surrounding area, we’re the leading party: we’ve got the votes.”

Mastella is also highly critical of the centre-left primaries: “They risk dragging on endlessly. Yet there would be a much simpler solution: every week, ten different polling organisations – both Italian and foreign – publish their findings, so why not commission one to see who can actually beat Meloni? Forget primaries – that’s how you win!” Conte and Schlein do not seem at all inclined to back down… “They should realise that you don’t become a leader if you aren’t one; Meloni is one because she has the numbers, whereas they don’t.”