Calenda: “Conte will drop Elly if she isn’t put forward as a candidate. He’s a leader made of plasticine.”

Rome. “Let’s set the record straight once and for all.” What exactly do we need to clarify, Senator Calenda? “That Schlein’s secretariat is a branch of AVS. And that Schlein is only running the party by chance.” Are you saying this because of foreign policy? “I’m saying this because ever since the PD saved the Five Star Movement, back in the days of the Conte II government, it has had no choice but to follow the Kremlin’s propaganda. And besides, just look at the members of the secretariat…” Speaking of the Kremlin, the master Goffredo Bettini has spoken of sending weapons to Kyiv, but only defensive ones. His protégé, Giuseppe Conte, is horrified. Surprisingly, Elly Schlein raised her hand. She agreed with Goffredo. Weapons, yes, but only on these terms: as he, Bettini, says. What do you think? “I think they’re playing games with weapons. For them, they’re a useful little game to position themselves as leaders of the broad coalition.” Are you saying they’ve mistook weapons for a trinket? “Yes. None of them care about what’s happening in Europe. Which is deeply immoral.” Yet Schlein maintains that we should continue to help Kyiv. “Schlein replied to Conte by saying they’ll resolve the friction over Kyiv with a ‘high-level compromise’…” Calenda pauses blankly. “…It’ll be the lowest possible compromise!” Really? Why don’t you trust her? “Because they can only survive by saying nothing. To scrape by, they have to keep quiet. Or say they’re against Meloni – or rather, no…” Another pause. “They can’t even say that!” What do you mean? “That they use phrases like ‘against the right’. Empty phrases.”

And what do you think of ‘defensive weapons’, though? “I think Bettini has done his job: spreading Moscow’s propaganda. Made all the more embarrassing by Conte, who this time has not returned the favour.” Do you think that, after Nova, the M5S’s international policy will become more radical? “Yes, certainly. Conte hasn’t returned his mentor’s affection because he wants to use Ukraine as a casus belli to break with the PD.” When would he want to break away? “When and if those PD bigwigs fail to give him the certainty that they’ll vote for him in the primaries.” How cynical of him! But is he really that ruthless? “He is. Without the certainty of winning, Conte will use Ukraine as an excuse to pull out. Or, alternatively, he’ll strike a ridiculous compromise with Schlein.” Meaning? “They’ll talk about ‘equipment’, ‘support’, or more generic ‘things’ to send to Ukraine.” Perhaps Five Star voters are more hardline than their elected representatives? “Of course. Conte bends to the will of the people. He’s the ‘plasticine Conte’.” But perhaps PD voters are more sympathetic to Kyiv. “I can assure you that Schlein isn’t interested in Ukraine. She’s with the AVS, not the PD. That said, she can’t say so openly, otherwise the party would blow up in her face.” But Ukraine is close to Matteo Renzi’s heart. “Renzi? A man who’s travelled the world and hasn’t found a minute to go to Kyiv? Don’t be ridiculous. The only guarantee Renzi has of getting back into Parliament is called Elly, and he won’t let her go even if…”. Even if? “Goodness, no. In the end, he’ll let her go. But he’ll do it later”. And maybe he’ll go to Kyiv? “No. It’s not even on his mind. He’s making his return to Ithaca. He’s on his way.” Are you saying he misses the PD? Is it the pain of returning? “Look, my only pain – or rather, disgust – is for all those who talk about Russia and Ukraine as if they were contestants at the Sanremo Festival.”