A right wing without populists. Calabria with a view

A liberal, free-market and even somewhat libertarian agenda. The very thing the country – and perhaps the centre-right too – is lacking. It is proposed by Roberto Occhiuto, 57, governor of Calabria, a member of the reformist wing of the coalition’s most reformist party, Forza Italia. No easy task, in a country that seems held hostage by opposing forms of populism and with the ‘conducator’ Vannacci looming large: without him, according to the polls, you cannot win; with him, according to what he says, you cannot govern – or at least not sensibly. Occhiuto, let’s start there. “First of all, politics isn’t arithmetic, so it’s not necessarily the case that introducing elements of populism into a coalition will increase the coalition’s support. On the contrary, it may even cause it to lose appeal among reformists and liberals: it’s not a given that the votes will add up.” Lenin’s question therefore remains relevant: what is to be done? “You do what the centre-right has done ever since its formation: stay united, win elections and govern with stability. If you put yourself in the hands of the populists, you might win – though I’m not sure about that – but it’s hard to imagine that you’ll then be able to govern.”

“And elections,” continues Occhiuto, “serve precisely to decide who should lead the country. Giorgia Meloni is an extraordinary leader, capable of winning and regaining support, and a representative of a non-populist European right. The liberal wing that supports her – namely Forza Italia – must capitalise on the increasingly pronounced shift to the left within the so-called ‘broad’ coalition to relaunch its liberal agenda.”

We’ll see what they are later. In the meantime, it seems you, Vannacci, wouldn’t have him in your own home… “No, and I don’t even like talking about it, because that just ends up emphasising a phenomenon present throughout Europe – the populist right – rather than fighting it. With Vannacci in the coalition, Meloni – who is our most important asset – would be forced to respond to a general who would be making ever-more outrageous claims against her every day, and thus to run an election campaign on ground that isn’t her own. Meloni herself has shown that she knows how to govern from the right without succumbing to populism.” For example? “For example, on the books. Populists do not concern themselves with intergenerational fairness or responsibility towards future generations. Meloni has kept the public finances in order and resolved the problems created by the populists: for example, the deficit caused by Conte’s reckless building bonus.”

All right, but the centre-right has its own populists: the differences between Salvini and Vannacci are becoming increasingly blurred… “The Lega I knew has always stood out for its ability to govern; it is the Lega of Fedriga, of Zaia, and now of Stefani.”

We were talking about Matteo Salvini, though. “As governor of Calabria, I can say that Salvini has proved himself to be a Minister for Infrastructure who does not seek easy approval from his own constituencies but is striving to achieve something historic, such as the Bridge over the Strait. Who would ever have imagined that the Bridge would become the great battle of a League minister?”

In short, Aldo Cazzullo is wrong when he writes that Salvini is the worst Transport Minister since the invention of the wheel… “I disagree with Cazzullo; Salvini is a Minister for Infrastructure who comes from the north, but he has allocated resources to my region that it has never had before – four and a half billion just for roads. If he were seeking to win over his electoral base, he certainly wouldn’t have given that money to Calabria.”

However, it does not appear that the Meloni government is particularly notable for its reformist drive. “I’d give Giorgia Meloni, the Prime Minister, a mark somewhere between nine and ten. Before becoming a regional governor, I was the parliamentary group leader for Forza Italia and had met her in Parliament. I’d always thought she was capable, but when put to the test of government – despite a great deal of scepticism – she demonstrated a poise and stature that even those who already appreciated her could not have imagined. However, she cannot do everything on her own; she cannot cover every area or take the place of everyone. The most reformist and liberal wing of the coalition has at times stood with its arms folded, waiting for Meloni to do the work. But she interprets her right-wing stance through a European lens. The reformist and liberal driving force of the coalition must be Forza Italia, which must also continue to champion its long-standing battles for civil liberties. And here we need to dispel a myth: when we talk about reforms, it always seems as though we are addressing an elite, as if we were the old Liberal Party stuck at 2 per cent. Instead, a liberal coalition is one that sets its own agenda and does not let the news dictate it. This does not mean we should not comment on current events, but rather that we should propose concrete and widely acceptable reforms to the public.”

Yet these seem rather utopian in the most stagnant country in the world. “I’ve carried out reforms in Calabria – on waste management, the water system, and the clientelist farce of the land reclamation consortia I inherited – and now I’m working on the health service. Berlusconi taught us this; he was the greatest liberal of the last 50 years, yet he always knew how to communicate in a brilliant and incisive manner.”

Is that what Forza Italia should be doing? “Let me start by saying that I am the deputy secretary of FI, so my assessment concerns the party as a whole. This isn’t about pinning the blame on anyone: without Antonio Tajani, Forza Italia would probably have disappeared along with Berlusconi. Having said that, I would like to see a party capable of putting a reformist agenda into practice on a daily basis, starting with its approach”. The approach? “It consists of not drafting laws under the dictates of special-interest groups.” At this point, an example is needed. “The taxi market. My region is the only one where Uber X operates. We found the means and made it happen, siding with the citizens who use the service rather than the taxi drivers’ lobby. The lesson is that we must choose what is right even if it is unpopular at the moment, in the knowledge that, if it is truly right, it will become popular. Let’s consider healthcare: it hasn’t been touched for decades because any reform comes up against the trade unions, the Medical Association and all the other professional bodies. But reform is needed, and it must be in the interests of patients, not doctors. This is called the liberal approach, and it applies to the economy too: it is what makes you resist the temptation to take the place of the market, whilst making investments that stimulate it. Calabria has a weak market; according to the orthodox liberal handbook, I shouldn’t have intervened so much, but I did so to enable the market, not to take its place. For example: the airport company was owned by a private operator who was unwilling or unable to invest. I acquired it for the region, made the necessary investments and achieved record tourist numbers. Now I could put it on the market.”

Taxes chapter. “Forza Italia is quite rightly trying to take the lead in the battle to reduce them – a move that needs to be made, but, and here we return to Berlusconi’s lesson, in such a way that the public actually feels the benefit. In recent years, the government has implemented two measures regarding personal income tax (IRPEF), first by merging certain tax brackets and then by reducing rates by a few percentage points. The reform costs around seven and a half billion every year; it’s a good thing, but few have noticed it. Berlusconi might well have abolished road tax, at least for certain categories of taxpayers: it would have cost the state less and would have been more noticeable to the public. Tax cuts must be implemented in any case, but they must be done in such a way that those paying them realise they are paying less.”

Let’s press ahead with the liberal and free-market agenda… “It is possible to cut red tape in this country. The current system of authorisations stifles every initiative. I would like to see a state that entrusts the responsibility for carrying out public works to businesses and private individuals and carries out checks after the event, rather than granting authorisation beforehand. More checks and fewer permits. I have calculated that to carry out a coastal erosion control project, I need to obtain nineteen prior authorisations. If we were to simply verify costs and results after the project had been completed, it would be finished in less time and at a lower cost. The state should trust its citizens more, rather than assuming, from the outset, that they’re out to cheat it. Another liberal cause I’d like Forza Italia to champion: too many young people are leaving Italy – I know many in Calabria – yet we are the home of ‘Made in Italy’, and thus of creativity, imagination and innovation. And creativity, by definition, is driven by young people. Instead, we have a pay system based on seniority increments: we need to propose a new one that rewards based on future potential. This is what large companies do: they invest in talent, not in years of service. This applies in the private sector but also in the public sector. I’d like my party to launch a major debate on promoting young people in the world of work; otherwise, we’ll be seen by young people themselves as a political party stuck in the past. Let’s ask ourselves why start-ups thrive mainly in America. By definition, start-ups have a high chance of failing. If you do it in America, you get a second chance; if you do it in Italy, you end up on the banks’ blacklist and nobody gives you another chance. This country risks not only growing old, but growing old badly.”

We have heard about liberal proposals, and about free-market ones too; the only ones missing are the libertarian ones. What are your thoughts on end-of-life issues? “It would be desirable to avoid a regulatory jungle, with every region making its own laws. The Constitutional Court has called on Parliament to address this; I hope it will do so in a courageous and liberal manner, whilst, of course, showing the utmost respect for all ethical and religious positions. I believe it is now too late in this parliamentary term, but one of the first items on the agenda of the next Parliament must be a law on this matter. In general, when it comes to civil rights, we – as the centre-right in general and Forza Italia in particular – should put forward bold proposals. Certain issues should not be assessed in terms of the support they gain or lose, but rather in terms of the image they project. A coalition that stammers on civil rights would be seen as out of step with the times, too conservative, by a young electorate that speaks very freely on these issues.”

Meanwhile, it does not appear that the centre-right has behaved in a particularly liberal manner regarding the Roggero case – quite the opposite, in fact. “I have not spoken out publicly on this matter because I believe one should not act on the emotion of the moment. I understand the exasperation of those who have suffered robberies for years, but it is clear that legislation cannot be drafted in the wake of high-profile cases that capture the public’s imagination. Every month there is some incident that captures the nation’s attention. I’m not saying we shouldn’t take action, but that we must do so with a clear reformist agenda in mind.”

The domestic picture is clear. The international situation, however, remains rather uncertain, though it too will be decisive. Meanwhile, Ukraine: should we continue to support it? “Absolutely yes. In my view, we cannot afford to lose our pro-European anchor, especially in the face of such concrete threats, even if the European Union appears weak, slow and divided. It is precisely on Ukraine that Europe’s authority is at stake. A serious centre-right coalition does not allow itself to be swayed by the moods of the moment. And it remains firmly Atlanticist despite the populist trends in the US.”

True, but it seems clear that Trump’s America wants to abandon NATO to its fate. In that case, what should the Europeans do? “Perhaps it would be wiser to wait and see what American voters actually do over the next few years. The US is the main pillar of the West, so our relationship with them must not depend on who is in power.” Meanwhile, in Europe, all governments appear, to a greater or lesser extent, to be weak… “The most authoritative leader at the moment is Giorgia Meloni, and not just on the right. I admit that this is a time when liberal thought and practice are struggling to gain ground in Italy and across Europe. After all, that was also the case when Berlusconi was around, who was certainly the most liberal European leader of recent decades.” Is there another Berlusconi out there? “I’d say definitely not, neither in Italy nor in Europe.”

Let’s talk about the future, then. Who will win the elections? “If the centre-right manages to be a little more optimistic about itself – in other words, to shake off the fear of being overtaken by the populists – it still has the most effective leader, and frankly, in an election campaign between Meloni and one of the potential leaders of the centre-left, there is cause for optimism.” The new Parliament will also have to elect the new President of the Republic: who would you like to see in the role? “The first rule I learnt in the institutions is that you don’t even mention the incumbent President, let alone discuss his successor. We have a President: Sergio Mattarella, and he is highly authoritative. In recent years, Mattarella has enhanced the perception of the role of the President of the Republic thanks to the rigour and balance with which he has carried it out.” All right, no speculation about the Quirinale. At least tell us how you see yourself, now and in the future. “I’m happy doing what I do: governing Calabria and being a driving force for Forza Italia. Despite the rumours in the press, I’m one of those who speaks least with Marina Berlusconi, and I have no intention of being the ‘anti-Tajani’ – or, for that matter, the ‘anti-anyone’. Had I remained leader of the Forza Italia group in the Chamber of Deputies, I would probably have become a minister. I could have, but I chose to focus on Calabria, where I’ll be staying for the next four years.”

Let’s make a note of this. So, as it’s 10 August, put together a promotional piece for your region: three reasons to come on holiday to Calabria. “Firstly, because it’s much easier to get to these days; tourism promotion policies have worked, Calabria’s airports are the fastest-growing, and the region is better connected. Secondly, because Calabria brings together all the beauty of Italy in a single region: nature, food and wine, and artistic heritage. Thirdly, because it’s the only region where, in the course of a single day, you can watch the sun rise over one sea, go for a walk in the mountains, and then watch it set over another sea.”