Renzi: “To prevent Meloni from becoming President, I’ll put up with Appendino. The votes will go through despite Ciccio Tajani.”

Rome. “We are living through a turbulent and difficult period. A truce in Ukraine seems much further off than it did a few months ago. The new tensions surrounding the Strait of Hormuz threaten to send energy and food prices soaring even further. Yet the Italian political debate seems terribly petty.” President Matteo Renzi, for days now they have been calling you “the god of deception”, “the irrelevant one”. And, as you know, it’s not Meloni’s supporters but the Five Star Movement. Patuanelli and Appendino. “Exactly. The world is in turmoil and we’re talking about Chiara Appendino. We have a government here that is not acting in Italy’s best interests. It’s a failed government, but one that could win again if the left is divided at the polls.” 

Is the Movement not getting the message? “Look, just to avoid having Meloni at the Quirinale, Vannacci at Chigi and Salvini at the Interior Ministry, I’m prepared to exercise the utmost patience and refrain from reminding Appendino of everything she’s done over the years. Starting with the yellow-green alliance. I’m not interested in Appendino, who, as a convicted criminal, is facing problems with her re-election bid. Meloni, who wants to go to the Quirinale, does interest me. But there’s one thing I want to say quite frankly.” Please go on. “Well, I have absolutely no desire to enter Parliament on the back of the 5S’s votes. I’ve already said that if there’s a coalition, and we win, I’ll give up my place on the reserved list. I don’t want to be in Parliament thanks to Schlein or Conte. If I do get in, I’ll get in on the strength of my own ideas, not because of their reserved seat. I hope this clarification sets the record straight and, if you’ll allow me, also does justice in the face of all the despicable accusations that have been hurled at me.” What controversies? “Renzi is giving up his own ideas for a guaranteed seat,” they said. We’ll explain to these know-it-alls that Renzi is giving up the guaranteed seat, not his ideas. And already in the book "Quando c’era lei", which comes out in September, there will be many ideas that we’ll bring to the coalition table.” Do you want to instil reformism in the Five Star Movement? That’s a vast undertaking. “The ‘broad coalition’ includes Appendino, Salis and Bonelli. The ‘broad coalition’ consists of the PD, the M5S and the AVS. If they want to go it alone, good luck to them. If they want to win, they must ally themselves with the reformists, who are distinct from the ‘broad coalition’.”

Schlein, on these pages, has thrown the doors wide open to the centre. “She did the right thing. She understands politics and, even more importantly, mathematics. I would like to win. As for the centrists: we, as Italia Viva-Casa Riformista, have the signatures, the resources, an organisational structure and a string of significant results in the regional elections. We’re ready. We are willing to make this structure available to other political forces as well. But a coalition is not a barracks; everyone must be – and feel – free. On the ballot paper, the public will find us as a reformist, rights-protecting centre-left list – an alternative to Meloni, against whom we have mounted a fierce opposition in recent years.” All right. Schlein, however, has also extended an olive branch to Calenda. “Calenda... Those on the right whom he helped get elected have already returned to the right – from Costa to Gelmini, from Carfagna to Versace, from De Monte to Castiglione. They’re all in Forza Italia or with Lupi. Those on the left won’t agree to commit political suicide in the centre on their own, so they’ll return home. But that’s Calenda for you: he changes his mind on the very last night. Poor Enrico Letta still remembers it well – kissed in public and duped in private. On the very last night, he’ll ask to join the centre-left.” As for the Democratic Party reformists? The secretary has given them a nod too: “The PD is a party full of reformists – perhaps not always particularly brave, but in many cases thoroughly reformist. I hope the amendment on preferential votes goes through. It will help both us and them. Meanwhile, I appreciated Elly’s interview with Editor Cerasa.”

Let’s move on to the other issue. On Thursday, you attacked Salvini. Meanwhile, the so-called ‘anti-Maranza’ law was passed. What do you think of that? “I think the government is going mad chasing the headlines. For every news story, there’s a decree or a draft bill. Faced with a social, cultural and educational crisis, the only response Meloni knows is one that works on Twitter. In any case, first they say security is under control thanks to Piantedosi, then that there’s a security emergency and so they want to put Salvini in charge of the Interior Ministry. They’re contradictory, to say the least.” Has Salvini failed? “They’ve failed on everything, from salaries to prisons. Just yesterday, the Palermo public prosecutor made a huge revelation: it is no longer the state that is in charge of the prisons, but criminal organisations. Do you realise what that means? Over the past few years, Delmastro has opened up the prisons and built himself a private militia within the prison service. But in the meantime, the state has lost control of the prisons. It’s madness!” Speaking of Delmastro, many in FdI are drawing parallels between the Meloni supporter’s case and the PD’s refusal to grant access to its chat logs. What is your response? “That you don’t need the chat logs to understand what Delmastro has done. Besides, I’ve always said I would make the chat logs available. We had nothing to fear. But I insisted on a formal request, which the public prosecutor refused to make, thereby violating the Constitution. Comparing someone like him – and everything he’s done, from Biella to the steakhouse right through to his private conversations with Donzelli – to someone like me is grounds for a lawsuit. But I’ll be magnanimous: it’s very hot; let’s blame it on the sweltering heat.”

You want preferential votes. Do you think Marina Berlusconi will boycott the Melonellum? “No. It’ll go through. If Marina stands in the way, Meloni could immediately form an alliance with Vannacci and the League and leave Ciccio Tajani and his cronies to their fate.” Ciccio Tajani? “Yes. I can already picture them whingeing and begging Giorgia for forgiveness. The truth is that, in my view, FI will back down on the electoral law. Even on the ‘Italicum’-style preferential voting system. And the anti-splinter party law will also be amended: they’ll go back from 3 per cent to the Rosatellum’s 1 per cent, or 2 per cent at most. But even this demand from FI will be scrapped – you’ll see.” One last question. As well as Transport, Culture isn’t faring too well either. The EU has cut two million from the Biennale. “I’d like to send my best wishes to Buttafuoco.” Yes, but Rai has taken his programme off the air. Some people have mentioned RadioFazzolari. What do you think of that? “The point is that Giuli hates it. And that’s another reason to hold him in such high regard. You see, this country will only go back to being a normal country when Giuli returns to the woods with his flute to play hymns to the god Pan. Because that’s his natural habitat, not the Collegio Romano.”