(Fictional) wiretap in the wider context. The programme on Ukraine

Schlein: Comrades, friends, allies, we have a problem. We cannot stand for election without a common position on Ukraine. We must demonstrate that the centre-left is ready to govern.

Renzi: Very well. Let’s begin with a straightforward question. If we were in government tomorrow morning, would we continue to provide military aid to Ukraine?

Conte: We cannot reduce such a complex issue to a simple yes or no.

Renzi: So no.

Conte: So we need to discuss this.

Della Vedova: Matteo asked a specific question.

Fratoianni: And Giuseppe gave a political response. We cannot turn everything into a referendum on guns.

Magi: Nor should we turn weapons into a lexical taboo. Ukraine has been attacked. It has the right to defend itself. And to defend itself, it needs weapons. Can we start from there?

Bonelli: Let’s start with peace.

Schlein: Let’s try to be serious. Our position must be based on international law, Ukraine’s sovereignty, Europe’s role and the need for a just peace.

Renzi: Elly, we agree because we haven’t said anything yet.

Bettini: Matteo, the point is to build a common language within which different sensibilities can find common ground.

Schlein: I’ll try a different phrasing. “The centre-left reaffirms its full support for Ukraine, a country under attack by the Russian Federation, through political, economic, diplomatic and military means.”

Conte: “Military” is not appropriate. It means committing ourselves today to continuing a strategy that we cannot regard as sacrosanct.

Fratoianni: We could write “using every means necessary to achieve peace”.

Renzi: Perfect. But if a useful tool were an anti-aircraft system, would we send it?

Fratoianni: We should consider the context.

Renzi: Is the Russian missile awaiting assessment?

Schlein: There is one point of agreement: no peace can be imposed on Ukraine.

Magi: And no decision on Ukraine without Ukraine.

Conte: Be careful. If we want to facilitate negotiations, we cannot write about the outcome before they have even begun.

Renzi: Giuseppe, we’re not reporting the result. We’re saying that an aggressor cannot expect to be rewarded.

Conte: But diplomacy requires realism.

Magi: Geography too. And geography tells us that Putin does not decide Ukraine’s borders.

Schlein: So let’s write: “We support Ukraine’s sovereignty and are working towards a diplomatic solution that does not reward aggression”.

Conte: I would prefer “that it takes into account the legitimate security needs of all parties”.

Della Vedova: Russia too?

Conte: Of course. That’s how negotiations work.

Magi: Russia insists that a neighbouring country should not be free to choose its own alliances. Is this a legitimate security concern?

Conte: I didn’t say that.

Renzi: But we risk writing it.

Fratoianni: We need a new framework for peace.

Comedian: Great. For now, Russia is tearing down the old one. When will the project be ready?

Bonelli: Europe must take independent action. We cannot continue to depend on Trump’s decisions.

Renzi: Excellent. And European autonomy also means European defence capabilities.

Bonelli: It depends on what we mean by ‘defence’. It also means preventing conflicts.

Comedian: I really like it. Let’s take preventative action against the war that has already begun.

Renzi: But if military investment is needed to ensure security, will you vote for it?

Fratoianni: We cannot accept an indiscriminate arms race.

Conte: We cannot sacrifice healthcare, education and welfare on the altar of militarisation.

Magi: But can we sacrifice the Ukrainians on the altar of the welfare state?

Della Vedova: But what alternative strategy are you actually proposing?

Conte: A European diplomatic initiative, an international conference, a verifiable ceasefire, security guarantees.

Renzi: What if Putin refuses to provide guarantees?

Conte: We need to step up diplomatic pressure.

Della Vedova: What if that’s not enough?

Conte: We need to involve all international players.

Magi: What if that’s not enough?

Conte: We must persevere.

Comedian: Brilliant. We’ve come up with a strategy: if Putin isn’t listening, repeat the message louder, but without causing a disturbance.

Bonelli: We might be able to reach a common position on the sanctions.

Schlein: Good. Tightening sanctions against Russia and tackling tax avoidance.

Fratoianni: Provided that the social impact on the most vulnerable groups is assessed.

Conte: And let’s see how effective the measures are.

Comedian: It would be interesting to test the effectiveness of bombs before they fall, too. But I realise that everyone has their own way of doing things.

Schlein: Let’s move on to the frozen Russian assets. Can we support a European initiative to use them for the benefit of Ukraine?

Della Vedova: Provided the necessary legal safeguards are in place, yes.

Magi: If Russia causes destruction, Russia must help pay for it.

Fratoianni: Provided that the reconstruction does not turn into a major speculative venture.

Conte: Provided that this does not create unsustainable financial risks for Europe.

Comedian: Let me summarise. We’ll take the money from the Russians, but only after ensuring that it doesn’t make anyone any money, doesn’t cost anything and doesn’t involve any risk. I’m starting to understand why we’re still in this room.

Renzi: At last we can use a verb: to pay. When it comes to weapons, we can’t even use the noun. Elly, in six months’ time we might be called upon to form a government. If Putin were to launch an offensive and Kyiv were to request new air-defence systems, what would our government do?

Conte: First of all, I would ask the Defence Minister for information.

Della Vedova: Let’s suppose the minister confirms the need for aid.

Conte: I would call for a meeting with our European allies.

Magi: Let’s assume the allies are in favour.

Conte: I would assess the nature of the weapons.

Renzi: Let’s assume they’re on the defensive.

Conte: I would assess the strategic implications.

Comedian: Let’s suppose that, in the meantime, a second offensive has begun.

Conte: Government decisions are not made on the basis of jokes.

Comedian: Not even with the timescales of a civil service recruitment process.

Fratoianni: The question is designed to divide us. Let’s ask ourselves instead how we can avoid that offensive.

Magi: That’s what we all want. But a foreign policy cannot be based on the assumption that the enemy will behave as we hope they will.

Bonelli: We should be aiming for a major European mobilisation for peace.

Della Vedova: That’s fine. But what if the European mobilisation for peace takes place whilst Russia is bombing Odessa?

Bonelli: I don’t see why the two things should be considered incompatible.

Renzi: Indeed, they aren’t. The problem is that if we say ‘weapons and diplomacy’, some people want to remove ‘weapons’. If we say just ‘diplomacy’, we’re all happy.

Schlein: We could use the phrase ‘support for Ukraine’s capacity for self-defence’.

Conte: If it doesn’t mean an automatic supply of weapons, we can discuss it.

Magi: Of course. But anti-aircraft missiles cannot be replaced by solar panels.

Bettini: The progressive camp cannot allow Ukraine to become the dividing line within the coalition.

Renzi: Goffredo, but that’s already the dividing line. Politics cannot abolish reality.

Conte: Above all, he cannot expect a party to give up its identity.

Schlein: Nobody is asking you to give up your identity, Giuseppe. I’m asking whether we can share responsibility for governing.

Conte: I will not accept a foreign policy line drafted by Renzi and Della Vedova.

Della Vedova: I simply ask that we do not blur the distinction between the victim and the aggressor when it comes to making concrete decisions.

Comedian: I propose an experiment. For five minutes, let’s ban the words ‘strategy’, ‘path’, ‘process’ and ‘architecture’. We’ll stick to ‘Putin’, ‘Ukraine’ and ‘weapons’.

Schlein: So let everyone say which phrase they consider indispensable.

Magi: “European support for Ukraine, including military support, must continue for as long as is necessary to guarantee its freedom.”

Renzi: As far as I’m concerned, two things are enough: Putin is the aggressor and Italy must not abandon Kyiv. We can discuss the means, but not which side to take.

Conte: “Italy is promoting an immediate diplomatic initiative for a ceasefire, moving beyond the logic of military escalation”.

Fratoianni: “Peace must once again become the priority of European politics”.

Bonelli: “Europe’s security is built on peace, cooperation, social justice and the ecological transition”.

Bettini: “The progressive camp is promoting a new vision of European security, based on the Union taking a leading role and overcoming the dichotomy between power politics and diplomacy”.

Schlein: “Unambiguous support for Ukrainian sovereignty, the building of a just peace and Europe’s central role”.

Comedian: Here’s mine: “If Russian tanks roll into a Ukrainian city tomorrow, let’s decide what to do before we decide what to call it.” Here’s the gem: if we write about what we do, we’ll be divided. If we write about what we hope for, we’ll be united.

Renzi: And if Trump were to strike a deal with Putin behind the Europeans’ backs, whose side would we be on?

Schlein: No agreement without Ukraine and without Europe.

Conte: Certainly. But we cannot rule out an agreement brokered by the United States from the outset.

Magi: No one is ruling it out outright. We are calling for it not to be a surrender imposed on Kyiv.

Fratoianni: We should be able to assess an agreement on the basis of its content, not on the basis of who is proposing it.

Renzi: But what if the proposal were to leave the occupied territories to Putin and prevent Ukraine from defending itself in future?

Conte: That would not be a satisfactory agreement.

Della Vedova: And would we reject it?

Conte: We would view that negatively.

Comedian: We could even express ‘deep concern’. They’d be trembling in Moscow.

Bonelli: Enough of this pattern whereby anyone who raises doubts about armaments is automatically regarded as being lenient towards Russia.

Della Vedova: Nobody says so. But anyone who wants to govern must also take on the responsibility of defending a country under attack.

Fratoianni: And he must take responsibility for not fuelling a war with no future.

Renzi: So the real question is: are you prepared to vote in the Council of Ministers on a new military aid package, if necessary?

Conte: We do not sign blank cheques.

Magi: Not even the Ukrainians are asking for a blank cheque. They’re asking not to be left on their own.

Della Vedova: No, if that means renegotiating the very principle of support every time.

Conte: I will not accept ultimatums. It is the voters who will decide who becomes Prime Minister.

Comedian: Ah, finally a common position on Ukraine: we need to hold the primaries first.

Schlein: Let’s not raise the issue of leadership at this stage.

Renzi: But it is linked. If the candidate for Prime Minister is to be chosen through the primaries, we will also need to ask them what they would do about arms.

Conte: The primaries must not turn into a referendum on foreign policy.

Fratoianni: The programme comes first, then the candidate.

Comedian: Perfect. The programme depends on the candidate, and the candidate depends on the programme. We’re a circular system. Very sustainable.

Bonelli: Can we at least agree that Europe should have an independent voice?

Renzi: Yes, but to have a voice, you also need some means of exerting pressure.

Della Vedova: And to be credible in diplomacy, you must be able to stand up for those who are under attack.

Fratoianni: Provided this does not become a pretext for a militarised Europe.

Comedian: So, a Europe that is strong but not too strong, autonomous but lacking the means, diplomatic but capable of deterrence. A Europe with muscle, provided it doesn’t use it and, if possible, doesn’t show it.

Schlein: We have arrived at a draft. I’ll read it out: “The centre-left firmly condemns the Russian aggression, supports the independence and sovereignty of Ukraine and promotes, in close coordination with the European institutions, every initiative necessary for a just, lasting and verifiable peace, through political, economic and humanitarian support and support for the Ukrainian people’s capacity for self-defence”.

Magi: I would add ‘including military’.

Conte: I would add ‘giving priority to a diplomatic solution’.

Fratoianni: I would remove ‘any necessary initiative’. It’s too vague.

Bonelli: I would add “with due regard for human rights and the safety of the civilian population”.

Della Vedova: I would not want the right to a defence to be taken away.

Renzi: I would prefer that we do not write off Ukraine whilst we try to save the broader coalition.

Bettini: I would suggest emphasising what unites us.

Comedian: I’d suggest asking Putin if he could please wait until we’ve finished.

Schlein: So, regarding this draft, can we say there is a political agreement?

Conte: There is a basis for discussion.

Fratoianni: A starting point.

Bonelli: An important contribution.

Magi: An ambiguity to be resolved.

Della Vedova: A text requiring clarification.

Renzi: A problem to be tackled.

Bettini: A process that needs to be consolidated.

Schlein: But can we at least issue a joint statement?

Conte: Of course. Provided it does not pre-empt decisions we have not yet taken.

Renzi: Right, let’s put it like this: “A positive meeting, a constructive atmosphere, and full agreement on the need to continue the dialogue”.

Comedian: And a thought for Kyiv, which continues to hold out whilst awaiting our next press release.

Schlein: In any case, we have achieved one important thing: nobody has walked out of the talks.

Renzi: Yes, Elly. The problem is that we haven’t worked out which side of the table we’re on.

Conte: I will not accept anyone casting doubt on our solidarity with Ukraine.

Magi: Nobody doubts that. We’d like to understand what it entails.

Fratoianni: It involves working for peace.

Della Vedova: And in the meantime?

Bonelli: Working towards a just peace.

Renzi: And in the meantime?

Conte: Avoid further escalation.

Magi: And in the meantime?

Bettini: Building a new European balance.

Schlein: Right. We’ll catch up tomorrow.

Renzi: On Ukraine?

Schlein: On the programme.

Comedian: Brilliant. At least we’ve found a truce. Between us, that is. It lasts until tomorrow.